Asha Thanki

[00:00:04] Speaker A: The Right Mind is a podcast hosted by the creative Writing department at Austin Community College, featuring discussions about craft, creativity and what it means to be a writer. The views, thoughts and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of Austin Community College. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only. The Austin Community College name and all forms and abbreviations are the property of its owner and its use does not imply endorsement of or opposition to any specific organization, product or service. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Hello. Hello. [00:00:40] Speaker A: All right, so I'm really glad you all are here. This is the Right Mind. This is Austin Community College's discussion series featuring craft, creativity and what it means to be a writer. Quick note. The views, thoughts, and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts, and opinions of Austin Community College. The material and information presented here is for general information purposes only, so nobody freak out. And we're so very happy to welcome Asha Thanke. Asha Thanke is an essayist and fiction writer. Asha's work has appeared in the Southern Review, Platypus Press, Wildness, the Common Catapult, Hyphen, and more. She is a Kunderman Fellow and has received support through scholarships and grants from Sewanee Writers Conference, Bread Loaf Writers Conference, and the Speculative that's Way Harder to say Than It Should Be Speculative Literature Foundation. She received her MFA in creative writing from the University of Minnesota a thousand times before is her debut novel. Please help me welcome Asha. Thank you. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Thank you. Hello. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. [00:01:50] Speaker A: And just so you know, everybody in the room can see you on these giant projector screens. [00:01:54] Speaker B: Perfect. [00:01:56] Speaker A: So they're here even if you can't see them. I'm going to start with a question that's directly out of my department chair's lexicon of opening questions. If you could have any superpower, what would it be? [00:02:08] Speaker B: Oh, if I could have any superpower, what would it be? That's a great question. Not telepathy. [00:02:20] Speaker A: I really don't want to know what everybody's doing. [00:02:21] Speaker B: I know. I think I know my nose more than I know my yeses. I would like to. I think I would always like more time, but I don't know how to get that. But maybe a superpower could help me figure that out. More. More time. But not like time where nobody else experiences more time. More time where we all have more time, you know? [00:02:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Oh, the video just did something weird on me. We just figured out how to have More time. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know the answer to it, but there must be a power, there must be a way to allow the days to feel longer. [00:03:07] Speaker A: There's some places where, where they count the days of 25 hours, but I don't think that actually creates more time. I think it just. It's all an illusion. [00:03:14] Speaker B: I don't want to be tired. I want to be able to have multiple hangs after the workday. This is what I'm trying to solve for. I'm trying to solve for time. I just want more. More time, but I don't want to be more tired. I just want my days to. I just want the ability to. To never have double scheduled myself because I can actually do everything. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that would be great. Multiple. But then we have to solve the. Do we have the emotional energy for multiple hangings after the workday? [00:03:48] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Like I needed to not be. I mean, honestly, like, could my superpower just be that? We live in a, in a society that's not driven by like profit orient. So thus I don't need the day job and the workday set up that way. But I think that that's a superpower that's more of a social superpower. Unless I think the independent one of this question. [00:04:07] Speaker A: I love that we're spending a lot of time on this question, but I kind of love it. I love the superpower is something that benefits everybody. [00:04:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that would. That's the ideal, actually. [00:04:18] Speaker A: So when. When did you know that you wanted to be a writer? [00:04:23] Speaker B: Oh, that's a great question. I think when I was, when I was a kid, I really loved the idea of writing. I was actually, I think, quite annoying. When I was a kid, I was writing. I think everyone starts in like some version of fanfic because it's really about being a really wonderful reader. And then you start being like, oh, maybe I should write something in that style. And so it's about like mimicry and that's kind of how you learn plot. And I remember being a kid being like, oh my God, I wrote 100 pages. I wrote a novel. But then I think it felt like I left that behind when I went to college because I ended up going to a university where at the time, and this has changed now, but at the time I could not double major. There was no creative writing major and I could not double major with English and the specific sub college I had been admitted into. In that moment, when you're 17 and a half, it's like, oh, okay, I Guess I'm not becoming a writer. I cannot study this thing and the other thing, which feels more, more stable financially. And so I, I had let it go, like as a teenager, like as a, as a near adult. And it was only, it was only, it only really became feasible because when I was in college, I really argued my way. I, by giving up English as a major, I started arguing my way into like, non fiction workshops and fiction workshops because I had done journalistic internships. And I was like, oh, I promise. I. Right. Like I, I, you know, this, this place took me as an intern, that place took me as an intern. And so I used those internships to, to count for my prerequisites into these advanced workshops. And so I took a nonfiction workshop with Norma Tilden my junior year, and then with David Ebenbach. I took a fiction workshop my senior year. And David cracked the world open for me because he told me that MFAs existed. And I had no idea, I had no idea that, like, you could go to funded. I didn't even know grad school was funded. Like, I didn't know that that could be possible. And so it was like my senior spring that I got published for the first time. And it was because he had taught me that you could publish a short story. And he told me that you could apply to MFAs. And, and so it took me another three years before I went to Minnesota. But yeah, David even Buck, like really cracked open being able to dream of being a writer again because I had really folded that up when I was, when I was in high school. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Do you think? I mean, because. And when you say that you had kind of given up on that dream, there were several of us in the room who, our hearts just kind of shriveled a little bit at the thought of giving that up. Do you think that that had you not given that up, that that door would have been open for you? Because it sounds like, it sounds like that door was. There's this whole other world that hadn't been considered yet. Right. [00:07:25] Speaker B: I think there's like the feeling that I am exactly who I would have been or I am exactly who I am because of what I studied and those experiences in the world. And like there's another alternate universe where maybe I majored in creative writing somewhere, and that's a different version of me and it's not the version of me now. I think it's. It feels somehow when I look at my own work with a really critical eye or an analytical eye that I see, oh, of course, like that's because you studied political economy, and, like, of course that's because you studied history in this way and you studied XYZ in that way. And I find it to be that I'm writing what I can now because I went down this particular path. And I think about our conversation yesterday, Eli. That idea of, like, the mind is already shaped by the world it exists in. So that's the mind of the writer. And so, in a way, I'm like, yeah, like, there's a version of me that went to a different university or a college and, like, studied creative writing, but as a result, did not know agricultural history in the 60s in India, you know? And so in that way, like, it just would have been a different book. That would have been the book I'd written. And. But I really do think that, like, going, like, I. I can see it in my writing today, the way that, you know, my first essays, I can really trace back to, oh, that's Norman Tilden's writing style. And so I feel really molded and really shaped by that. And with David, like, with David's workshop style and even just he. He shaped not only my fiction, but also actually who I was when I was an instructor at Minnesota. I think, like, the type of teacher I wanted to be was entirely the type of teacher that he was for me. And the idea that, you know, I was teaching students in the room who might have also been econ majors. Right. And may have never thought of themselves as writers and, you know, oh, no, we can all do that, too. Like, it actually felt possible to me because David Ebenbach had told me that that was possible for me, so it had to be possible for my students, too. [00:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah. There's a whole lot of magic in taking this experience out of grad school that we, like, we know we chose grad school for the reason of being able to immerse ourselves and then being able to say, hey, look, this thing that you're trying to make all this side time for could be, like, the whole thing. [00:09:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And especially with the limitations financially, like, someone being able to say, like, oh, did you know that this would be fully funded, like that? Game changer. [00:10:01] Speaker A: Yeah, for a lot of people, for sure. [00:10:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Well, with that in mind, I mean, you got your mfa and now you've got a day job. What is that day job? And how does your writing education and experience interact with what you do in the day job? Or do they interact at all? Are they completely separate? What's the. What's the relationship there? [00:10:21] Speaker B: I actually Try to keep them quite separate, I think so. I. You know, I have this. We talked a little bit yesterday about, like, my math brain, but I work in. Around, like, data. And so that way it's actually quite. It's actually quite. [00:10:43] Speaker A: Okay, sorry, go ahead. [00:10:44] Speaker B: No, you're so good. I think it's actually, yeah, I keep them quite separate because I think it's. You know, the fear I had had about going into something more journalistic was, what if I am pulling from the same part of me that is writing my own work? And so it feels very like, okay, we're working in Excel during the day, and then we're working in Scrivener during the evenings and weekends. And that. I think that type of separation, I think, for me, is really helpful. But it also means that I'm not pushing myself to write faster than I need to. And I'm. I think one of the big things I realized was that I was really scared of relying on the book to provide rent and, like, the things that I think motivate us to say, like, I can never be down on someone for writing something. You know, when people are like, oh, that person sold out, or whatever. It's like we live in a society where we're expected to pay for all of these things and come up for that money from somewhere. And part of that is rent, and, you know, part of that's health insurance. And I think for me, there was this idea of I want my art to feel like it's not being created for covering my rent. And so I need to have a different job that can give me rent money and provide me with health insurance. And then that way, if the book that I'm working on takes five years or if it takes 10 years, that's okay, because I have some feeling of financial stability otherwise. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Right. There's. And there's also a pressure that changes the art when the art is the paycheck. [00:12:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:24] Speaker A: So there's that emotional relationship without wanting to rely on it. But then there's the. This has to. I mean, and you mentioned it, too, right? This has to sell. This has to be shaped so that it makes money. Otherwise, I'll get the star. [00:12:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I want to be able to write whatever book regardless of the idea of, like, do I think a lot of people will want to read this? It's like, actually, like, if nobody read it and if nobody really wanted to buy it, and then definitely if they bought it, they didn't want to buy it for that much money, is it still the book that I'd want to write. And I want that answer to be able to live in a yes form without it affecting, oh, well, then how am I going to pay my utilities? [00:12:58] Speaker A: Right, Right. I mean, right in the dark. [00:13:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess by hand, like candlelight, and only by hand. Goodbye, Scrivener. Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker A: And you are a spreadsheet. We talked about this. You are a bit of a spreadsheeter during the day. But I think one of the questions that we kind of hear a lot is what kind of writing software you use? That learning curve for Scrivener is I. [00:13:23] Speaker B: I use it like a glorified Google Doc. I actually have to admit that I. I am not at all some. I'm always learning new things that Scrivener can do and then saying, actually, I'm not going to use it at all. But when I was in grad school, it cost $50 at that time to download, and somehow that meant that I had to write the novel because it was the same as my weekly grocery money, you know? And so I was like, oh, if I'm going to spend all of this on scri, then I have to use it like that. It became this impetus to write it, and then it just. I literally use it, like, as a glorified Google Doc with just. I use the scenes on the left side and that's it. [00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I haven't even gotten into the cork board aspect of it yet. [00:14:09] Speaker B: You can't touch it. [00:14:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. If I sit down to sit down and learn the cork board, then I'm not actually writing. [00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's full of distractions. Like, there's a lot of bells and whistles. And I'm sure they're really useful if you understand what they do. And I have just chosen not to. [00:14:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense because you're actually writing instead of bells and whistling. So what does your writing practice look like? You're separating the. The work energy from the writing energy. What does the writing practice? [00:14:38] Speaker B: So I. Right now. Right now, what it looks like is I try to write a little bit every day, and I allow that to include iPhone notes where I'm just planning, and I allow that to include drawing in my notebook. And so if it's diagramming, that counts. But I try to think about my writing or something related to my writing and, like, act on that, whether that's diagramming or actually physically writing every single day. But my practice has not always been like this. I think this is because I had set an internal deadline for finishing a draft by my first reader is one of my closest friends, and she's a doctor. And so it literally matches to her whenever she has her two weeks of vacation is when I need to get her a draft by. So that means I actually have to finish a draft on time. But so I've been doing. I've been doing this a lot lately where. Yeah, like, the. The ask of myself is that every day I'm either thinking about the writing, I'm planning what's coming next, or I'm executing the writing. But the big thing for me is if I start writing a scene, I have to finish it before I leave, before I leave the desk or before I go to whatever the next plan in my day is, because I just feel often like the idea will escape me. I can't come back to it and suddenly be in the same headspace. I guess the. The other thing also is I only listen to. I have albums that I only listen to when I'm writing. And so, like, for a thousand times before, there's a. The Pulaski at Night EP by Andrew Bird is like. I listened to that over and over and over the entire time I was writing the book. And I. It would do that magical thing of just being like, oh, you're in the right headspace now. And so there are albums like that. So it's always. Yeah, it's always music. If I start writing a scene, I have to finish the scene. Even if I don't like it, I just have to get some version of it down. And then I always end up reading, like, the. Before I start writing, I'll always end up reading the few scenes that come before it and then write the next scene. So I'll revise into whatever the new writing is. [00:16:50] Speaker A: That's a pretty familiar approach to getting into the space of the story, is reading those few. Few pages beforehand. Yeah, I think music too. For me, it's the Interstellar soundtrack. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Like a good score. That's exactly. Plesky At Night was written by Andrew Bird to sound like a movie score. So it's like, exactly that vibe. Yeah. [00:17:12] Speaker A: Yeah. So do you find that if you're. If you're listening to music with lyrics, that the lyrics end up being part of prose? [00:17:18] Speaker B: They don't end up being. I don't think they end up being part of the pros. But I do listen to music with lyrics, but I listen to it so much that I. I not even registering the words anymore. So, like, for the project I've been working on right now, it's like James Blake's Friends who Break youk Heart album. But I've listened to it so much, and it's so in my mind. But I also think that the reality is, like, some of those lines about, like, influence. I mean, I'm leaning into it, right? Like, I'm using it to get into the headspace. So if that feeling or something, you know, if something is, like, coming with me in the room, I think I welcome it in the same way. I'm like, when I sit down, if I'm having a conversation with my partner, and I don't know where, like, the ideas, like, begin and end. That's also part of that. That, like, oh, I don't know where the boundaries are. Like, I. I know obviously I'm not, like, writing the lyrics by Blake James Lake, but I am like, oh, the. The musicality, whatever that's influencing in me. I think I want that. I don't think. I don't think I'm shying away from it. Yeah. [00:18:24] Speaker A: Yeah. I did catch myself once upon a time having to rewrite several conversations. Very smoke weird. Kept sneaking in. Oh, no, no good. And this kind of gets to. We've kind of. Kind of gets to this next question. What inspires you to get to the page? What excites you about writing in general? [00:18:46] Speaker B: I think that. I think writing is sometimes right. Like, sometimes it's not exciting, sometimes it's scary. But maybe they're like two sides of the same coin. But I. I think the thing that gets me to the page is really being excited about the story. Like, I find it's easier to approach my desk when I feel like, oh, I know the next scene I'm going to write, it's going to be blah, blah, blah. And that gets me to write. But I also think part of it is, like, there's this type of unboxing. I don't think I always start writing knowing exactly who my characters are. Right. Like, I think I know this. Like, we talked about this a little bit yesterday. But, like, the beliefs or the motivation, like, I think I have this, like, way into the character. And then as the. Or, like, sometimes it's like an image of, like, what I want the story to really feel like. But as I dig deeper into that, it feels like I'm understanding or, like, unraveling this present in front of me of, like, oh, no, that's actually what the story could be about too. And, oh, also this. And I find that, like, writing gets more exciting when I allow. When I allow it to feel like I Can just figure out what happens. I remember being asked once by my students if I was like, a planner or a pantser. Like, you either fly by the seat of your pants or you plan. And I'm like, oh, I guess I'm somewhere in the middle because there are scenes I have no idea I'm gonna write when I start writing. But it's because of this one thought that's in my head of like, oh, I just want this, like, one scene with, you know, I just had this, like, really cool type of grape where you have to, like, peel the skin. And I. I would. I see a metaphor in this. I just want to. I want to explore it more. I guess I have to have, like, which characters would eat that? Like, which characters would share that? How would they talk about this? And suddenly that's in the project, right? Like, I think moments like that make it feel really exciting. And then sometimes it's the. You know, it's just not that. Like, even the kill your darlings. It's almost like if I go into it being like, oh, this is the worst draft. It's fine. It's just not that deep. I can always, like, pull scenes I'm gonna cut and put them elsewhere, and then I wait until my attachment to them has gone away, and then I can finally delete them, you know? But I think it's just like, oh, yeah, when it feels low pressure, that's when it's more fun, you know, when it. [00:21:12] Speaker A: When it feels like you can. You can eat and write at the same time. [00:21:15] Speaker B: Yeah, there you go. [00:21:18] Speaker A: So, I mean, you mentioned peeling the skin. And I'm a big fan of horror, so I'm going to use that as a segue, thinking about peeling skin. There's a lot of speculative elements in your work. [00:21:28] Speaker B: We. [00:21:29] Speaker A: I mean, clearly in a thousand times before with the story that. That my students read Renovations, you mentioned having speculative element in terms of time. Right. So have you always leaned toward those speculative elements or what. What gets you there? [00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I. I've always loved reading speculative, and I think my home in short story was speculative fiction because I think it gives something. It's. It becomes this exception, external pressure that makes the ant, like, it just ratchets up the ante of every story. And I find it to be, like, really useful in that way for getting towards, like, more of the, like, sociopolitical motivations that exist, you know, like, in. In these worlds. I think one of the things that I'm. I'm always trying to wrap my mind around is what does it feel like to be human or like to be a person in the most extreme of circumstances? Like, why do we still fall back into the same core things that like we would fall into in our regular lives, which is love and community? And I just want to hold the hand of the person I love while the world's, while the world is ending. And I want to be on the street for my community, you know, like it's the same thing, no matter what that external pressure is, I guess. And so I find it to be really useful because it's, it. It shines this really acute light on what's going on that, that I think then like, lets me explore, like, oh, well, how would a government react? Or how would this community react? Or how would a divorced woman who knows a meteor is going to hit the earth? Like, what is she, Is she going to call her ex wife? Like, what's she going to do? And like that. Those are, those feel like really fundamental questions in my mind. But I also, yeah, I'm really, I think there's this type of interest I have. I keep calling this speculative malaise in my mind, but this type of like, just like, what does it mean to be like the only thing I can do actually like to be a protagonist in the world where you actually do not have as much control as traditional writers might say you do. But we are all protagonists with limited action. And so it means sometimes that the only things we can do are the most human things. And those are, you know, picking up the phone and calling or sitting together. And so yeah, I find that to be like something I'm really obsessed with just generally. And so I think that's why the short, like especially in short fiction, but also in a thousand times before, it just felt like something I wanted to hold on to. [00:24:08] Speaker A: I mean we do get to see the most human reactions in the face of the most inhuman acts. Yeah, I think that's a beautiful way to approach things. Love to know what your writing community looks like and how influential it has been in your journey. [00:24:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I think my writing community, I mean my two of my best friends from college, one is a writer and a painter and the other is an artist of like many varied mediums. And I don't think she would call herself a writer, but I would call her a writer. They are both like two of my go to, like, oh, let's. So let's create in tandem. And especially during COVID we would do these exercises where we'd all paint or write and then share and we had to write something that was inspired by what we had just been assigned or read or seen made by the other person. And so I think that a lot of what I see as my writing community is really based on connecting with friends who have just very different artistic practices. And so I've been doing a lot of creating recently with. With one friend who's an artist and one friend who's a. Like, she makes zines, like, graphic graphic novels or graphic short stories. And so a lot of it has been, like, engaging on, like, oh, like, I'm gonna create this while you create that, and. And this other person. Like, you know, all three of us are creating something different in shared space and taking the moment to come out of that and be like, all right, so I'm working on this. Or I've got this question. Can I just, like, talk it out loud to you guys? And so much of that is what it looks like for me right now. And I think you. Three years at Minnesota, I was in really regular workshopping, and I think now it's, you know, sending a draft to a friend and promising I'll read yours. Like, let's treat back and forth. Like, even if we're living in different places across the country or the world and being able to say, like, okay, I know that you're one of my favorite first readers. Would you please. And so a lot of it looks like. A lot of it looks like that, but I find, yeah, I'm not in, like, a regular workshop right now or. Or. But I'm finding myself, I think, feeling really in artistic community, larger than writing community. But that. Yeah, I think. But I think that also makes sense where I'm like, oh, I'm. I've just finished a draft of a new thing, so I'm not really at workshop yet. And I'm sure I will sit down with friends and be like, all right, I need to get workshopped. Could you. [00:26:42] Speaker A: But it sounds like. It sounds like the people you've surrounded yourself with in this process are all creative and supportive in some way. [00:26:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think they're creative and supportive, and they're also. I trust their critique. I think. I find that I am not someone who. I want to be told what's working so that I don't accidentally get rid of it. It. But I don't. I. I'm not as. I'm so worried about not knowing what's wrong and not being able to put in the work while I still can, that I definitely am someone who, like, dives faster into the critique. Than in the, like, supportive first round. And I. It's like, one of those things. Like, I would never teach that. Like, I would. I would never, like, suggest to someone that that's how they should be. But I also grew up, like, doing music master classes where you get really used to having a really thick skin and. And you just do get critiqued in front of other people. And then I was a dancer, and I was used to getting critiqued in front of other people. And so writing just feels like another way of. Okay. Like, I just have to. It's not personal. And certainly there were times when, like, my closest readers from grad school, like, there was a time when they were strangers to me. It's just that it's like, oh, like, you know, seven years later, they are now. There are now people that I can. I know that I'm like, okay, you'll be supportive. But you also know, I know that you write me the best workshop letter. Like, I actually just need you to critique this with, like, your most tight eye. But I think, yeah, I don't think it was always that. I. Yeah. And then I think even in New York now, there are friends that I've made just from work, from different, like, summer workshops. But I'm thinking of two friends in particular, where less so than critiquing or workshopping. It's really just nice to have accountability, where you're at a dining table working on your writing together, where it's like, okay, we're going to order in tonight, and we're both just going to write for an hour and a half, and then we're also going to gossip and gab for another hour and a half. And it means that we both wrote today. And that feels like what I. Sometimes, especially when I'm generative, like, that's what I need more than I need the workshop. Like, the formal workshop is just. Okay. I need someone who's also writing so that I can parallel. [00:29:10] Speaker A: Parallel work that body doubling. [00:29:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:29:17] Speaker A: So who. Who and what are you reading? [00:29:21] Speaker B: Ooh, who and what am I reading right now? I just got the Buffalo Hunter Hunter by Stephen Graham Jones off of Libby. So that's currently what I am reading. I'm like, in the first 20 pages of it, but I just got it this morning. [00:29:32] Speaker A: There's laughter in the room right now because I was going to get through this conversation without saying Stephen Graham Jones. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Oh, that's actually crazy. [00:29:40] Speaker A: I worked with him during my. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Oh, that's. I. I swear to the room. I swear I did not know. Yeah. I, I just, I literally am reading it off of my phone, so it's my, it's my subway read. And then I just finished, I finally finished Kavak Bar's Martyr. That was like the, the book I, I last finished was finally that one. And I bought it when it came out. And I, I, I tried to, I mean, this is how, you know, I'm already, if I'm reading on Libby, I'm already letting my resolution down. But my goal this year was to start going through all the, all the books that I, I've, that I have on my shelves but haven't read. And so, yeah. So slowly. But, yeah, Buffalo Hunter X Hunter is where I am right now. [00:30:26] Speaker A: I think it's a worthy deviation from the stuff that's on the shelf already. And it's a fabulous book. It's brilliant. [00:30:33] Speaker B: I'm excited for it. [00:30:36] Speaker A: So we're getting into the last couple of questions here before we open it up. So those of you who are in the zoom, throw your questions in the chat. We will make sure that Asha hears them and answers them. Those of you, those of us in the room, get your questions ready. Last one. I've got two. I've got. What do you wish you would know about writing before you starting? [00:31:01] Speaker B: What do I wish I had known? That's a great question. I think that. So maybe this is less about writing and more just that I think a common, like a peeve. I don't know. I think that I find consistently frustrating, especially thinking about the very beginning of this process was how black box the industry or just like writing. I mean, even to think about the fact I had no idea about Emma Face. And I don't know, like, if that was my own ignorance to the career or the, the academic side of things. And maybe if I had also been in more creative writing classes before my senior year of college, like, maybe I would have known. But I, but I also think it's just that there's a lot that's a black box. And I find it. I, I was really lucky because even when, like, because I had David Eben back when I was in college, and I was really lucky at Minnesota because my faculty advisor, Vivi Ganeshanathan, like, Sugi, really helped me navigate. She really helped me navigate getting represented and thinking through the professionalization of the process. And I was really lucky that at that time in my life I had access to her. And certainly, you know, I know faculty are available to folks, but sometimes it, I just mean that it's like a black it's sometimes a black box of an industry. There's like a lot that's unknown and so much that it's kind of laughable. Like, when there was that one, oh, my God, what was a merger where it was like, oh, we have actually no algorithm for how we price books. Like, we don't. There's no math. Right. Like, behind the scenes. And so I think that it's something I wish consistently was more explicit about the industry. And I think the only reason I don't wish I had known it earlier was because I had exactly the right people at exactly the right time. But there are so many worlds in which that could have not been true. But I think also, like, if I. I'm on the other side, like, maybe this is a little cheeky, but I think that there is. If I had known, you know, how long it takes to write a book and revise it, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I'm glad I didn't know that. You know, I'm glad I did not know. I like the amount of work. I'm glad that I tricked myself into doing it. I'm glad that, you know, having done it once, it automatically feels easier, but it certainly, like, is hard. And I'm glad that I did not psych myself out too early. [00:33:40] Speaker A: That's good. We're glad too, having read. And the last thing before we get to audience questions, what piece of advice would you give those just starting their writing journeys? [00:33:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's like a lot of. There's. There's a lot of ideas of, like, a right way to do it, and I think that it just can't possibly be true. Like, the only right way is to do it at all. And so if somebody's telling you, like, you should wake up at 4am and write a thousand words before you start your day, but you're not a morning person, then it. That's fine. Like, I think there's. There's always like a writer in, you know, who's like, oh, you have to do this. You have to dedicate it the first thing. But there's somebody else doing the laundry and the cooking and the cleaning and. And I guess, like, there's a part of me that's like, so long as you were thinking of it and doing it at all is really actually the only thing that matters. And so there's no right process. The right process is the one that works for you in your life at this point in your life, and it might change in like a year. And it might change in 20. And for me, I think taking that pressure off of myself and like, oh, there's a specific way to be a writer. A writer has to be a full time writer. They have to suddenly make all of their money from selling their books and somehow afford COBRA or like, you know, like health insurance off of that. They, they have to like be only writing all the time. Like I wouldn't, I could never have met those, those like bars. And I think they're. Anytime there's like a right way to do something, I wonder like who's saying that and why, like what vested interest they have in it. And so if it's just a phone note, like that counts and if it's just, that counts and if it's just Scrivener or a Google Doc, that counts. And I think that, yeah, I think that's like the big advice in my mind and it's advice I, I had to remind myself for a long time because it took me a really long time to even identify myself as a writer. I was like, oh, do I get to. And it's like, no, I'm doing it. I'm just doing it in my way. And that has to count. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I love, I love the big reminder that the only right way to get it done is the way that gets it done. Done. Right. And that whatever that means for, for everybody doing the doing. Yeah, it's going to look different for everybody. [00:35:55] Speaker B: Yeah, we all have different lives. Like it, it doesn't. Like there can't be one process that works for every single person. Like there has to be flexibility and [00:36:04] Speaker A: there can't be one. I mean you said if things change, there can't be one process that always works for one person. [00:36:09] Speaker B: Yeah, Like I, I used to be a night writer and I just, I have to go to bed early to wake up like at 8am I require a lot of sleep. And so it's been impossible. [00:36:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Like I'm just like, oh, I'm not a night writer anymore because I just can't be. That's fine. I can be a different type of writer because even if it's not the most intuitive to whatever it means it's happening. And that's actually like what I need is to know that it's happening. [00:36:41] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you so much for that. We're opening it. Open to questions from the. I'm going to go ahead and flip the camera so that we're looking at it. Yeah. Everybody say hello. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Hello. [00:36:54] Speaker A: And let's have your questions. Go ahead. [00:36:59] Speaker B: My name is Voss, it's very nice to meet you. [00:37:02] Speaker A: I see you're very established. [00:37:05] Speaker B: I would love to know what your [00:37:06] Speaker A: favorite unconventional writing practice is. [00:37:09] Speaker B: My favorite unconventional writing practice. That's a great question. I feel like in my mind, is the music unconventional? I don't know, but the iPhone notes, I think are. I guess I should also say that the iPhone notes, like, I don't divide up by topic. I just have one really long note. I don't. It's just one really long note. So long as I'm working on a project which, for context, I have a note that I've been working on since 2022. So it's. It's really be. It's not organized. Is that unconventional? I guess to me, that's a part. I think, also, though, like, I guess in my. When I'm thinking about convention, there's also, I think, a lot of people who. When they think about who they're working with or, like, the things that get them writing or their writing community, they think also about writers first. And I guess I think that, like, my work is. I find that, like. Like, it's really fun to work in community with artists who are not in my medium at all. That, like, that type of influence is, like, really amazing. And I guess I don't know if now I'm going to overthink what. What makes something unconventional, but I don't feel like a lot of people always do that, I guess. And so I think that it's something that I would definitely urge is, like, break out of. Like, there's so much to learn from, like, a painter or a dancer or a composer about style and technique and narrative. And I was really lucky, I think, that I was in grad school with people who thought that way before I myself thought that way so I could learn from them to do that. And so, like, oh, I guess, actually, sorry. I have a better answer. I also took a ceramics class when I was in grad school, and I think it's really useful to have something that you're allowing yourself to be bad at. That I'm. I'm not great at sculpture. I would not consider myself a sculptor, but I took a lot of the pressure off the writing because I really wanted the writing to be good. I wanted it to be good so badly that giving myself permission to be really bad at a different thing actually really helped me. Yeah, I love that. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Something bad now. [00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I find, like, yeah, I was like, oh, no, I'm really bad at this. And I was like, okay, great. All of writing frustration will come out here. Like, I. I can't make a bowl anyway, you know. Thank you so much. Yeah. [00:39:53] Speaker A: And what's the threshold for an effective bowl? It's just gotta hold water. Right? [00:39:57] Speaker B: Like, it doesn't have to look allegedly, you. And sometimes it just has to dry without. You know, it just has to, like, not get a crack when it goes in the kiln. Harder than you think. [00:40:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Noel asks a question in the. In the chat. Chat. Do you ever get writer's block? And if so, how do you push past it? Are there tools or specific ways you pull yourself out of a motivation or creativity funk? [00:40:18] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I. I do. And I think my response to writer's block often is. I mean, like, I guess if it's not clear already, I'm an external processor, so I try to use that even if I'm journaling. So I'll usually switch modes. So I'll move from computer to hand. That's. That's actually usually, like, the first thing I'll do is be like, okay, I can't stare at the computer screen anymore because Makes you feel bad if you're stuck. So you have to find a way to not feel bad, because being stuck is actually like, a solvable problem in my mind where the first question is, why? Like, why am I stuck? Like, what is it thing I'm stuck on? Is it? And so I will start journaling literally these words, like, why am I stuck? I am stuck because I don't know what scene comes next or because I'm scared of writing the next scene. What would make me feel better? It would make me feel better if I knew. Knew that all of the legwork in this specific subplot felt good. Okay, let's go back and read. So I'll make a plan. Okay, I'm gonna go back and read everything in that subplot. Does it feel like enough? Okay. No. I need, like, two more scenes. Okay, let me go back and write those two scenes. And now have my feelings shifted now? Do I feel unstuck? Or is it, like, do I just not know what the story I'm writing is? And I mean, for context, and we talked about this a little bit yesterday, but I am. I'm so compulsively diagramming it out that I very rarely. I spent so much time thinking about writing and distracting myself. Like, if it's a novel project, I will really be like, what is the story like? Let me figure out what the driving tension of this story is. Like, what are the big plot Points. If it were a three act, what would be the big one? Sentence summary for each act. I don't have to know every scene, but I want to know where it's going. And then while I'm doing that thinking, I will just distract myself with another genre. Like, I think I write nonfiction when I'm trying to procrastinate writing fiction and vice versa. So sometimes it just helps to walk away from it for a little bit. But my big suggestion would be, like, switch modes. So, like, if you're working on a computer screen, go by hand. And then, like, instead of being scared of the stuckness, really interrogate it. Like, why. Why are you stuck? And. And how can you use hypotheticals even to break out of it? I talk a lot at my friends if I'm stuck, or my partner or the journal is a great way to not talk to a person, but to just write out the problem. Yeah. [00:42:53] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you. [00:42:55] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. [00:42:56] Speaker A: Definitely. [00:42:57] Speaker B: So my question was, how much do you think. Think your, like, day job affects your writing and that? Like, is it helpful or do you find it more of a hindrance? Oh, yeah. In a world where I did not have to worry about capital, I'm not entirely sure that I would work a day job. But I also. Yeah, so I think that that's, like. I guess, like, the natural answer is, like, in a way, it's a hindrance, but it's like, it's a hindrance that I think I, you know, I. I have to deal with in a way. Like, there's no. There's no estate or, like, family wealth to just be like, all right, let me. I'll just not do that. So I guess in a way there's If I. And I think the question is, like, if I didn't have to pay rent, then I wouldn't also have that question of the pressure to. To force a book out faster to pay rent. Right. So, yeah, I think. I think it was a lot easier to write my first book than my second project because I had a lifestyle that was really set up for writing, and that was because of, you know, the. The structure of the MFA and especially it being funded. Yeah. But I also think that there. There are things in life like, that I. I can't view it as. Yeah, I, I. Yeah, it just. It is a hindrance. And there's, like, no two ways about that, I guess. But I also think that if I let it keep me from writing, then that's like. That's the thing that's in my control. Right. Like, Living in a society right now where I have to pay rent feels like it's not in my control. But being able to find the time to write, that feels like it's in my control. Even though I know it means that, like, there are years where I'm like, oh, I'm going to be a bad friend this year. I'm like going to have a tough time showing up because I know I have a deadline to hit or I have this project that like, I need to get done by a certain time or I know that there are, you know, I'm moving even the way that I see my community into, okay, can we co write? Because this is my, my evening, this day. Like, this is what I have to do. And I have the luxury of. I don't have, I don't have children and I don't have a pet. Even though, Even though know I'm certainly one day those will become issues, maybe. Right. Like, I would love to have a dog. And also I'm like, this year is not the year for me to have a dog. So there are, there are ways in which it's not easy. There are ways in which it's not easy. And I don't think it, I don't think, I don't want to pretend that it's easier than it is, but I also feel like if I let my job take away from me writing, then I will be sadder. I would just be so sad. [00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there's also something, something to be said too about the pressures of the job shaping the existence which then shapes the writing too. Right? [00:45:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, I, I really do think that, like, right now, if I, If I weren't working and I was relying on, I was like, oh, I can spend all day writing, but now I also have to do the book faster to set, Sell it. I don't think that that's right for me either. [00:46:14] Speaker A: Go ahead, A.J. do you think your voice changes as a writer? And if so, is there a specific example of a project that surprised or shocked you? [00:46:25] Speaker B: Oh, do I think that my voice changes as a writer? And is there something that has shocked me? Yeah, I think my voice is probably constantly changing as I change. I would imagine that to be true. I think. Actually, I'm sure if I went back, I. I haven't. I don't go back and reread a lot of my work. Like, I. Especially short stories. I haven't gone back and reread some of my earlier short stories. It was actually really funny. I went back and reread Renovations for the first time in years. Like, that story came out more than seven years ago. And I'm sure in some ways I would hope that I'm a different writer today than I was at the time when I wrote it then. I remember Rivka Galchin, the writer, made a comment once at this lunch that I was at during grad school that was about, you have to write the book at the time that you're thinking about writing the book. There's no, let me wait until I'm a better writer, because that version of you might not want to write that book. Actually, the idea you have now is the idea you have as a writer that you are today. And so actually, you are totally equipped as a writer you are today to start writing that. And if you spend too long waiting, that idea might actually just not be interesting to you in 10 years. And I think that that, for me is totally true. I think if you caught me today and you're like, oh, do you want to write a book a thousand times before? There's a chance that I'm like, no. I feel emotionally attached to the next project. And in 10 years, I hope to be emotional over both of these projects and attached to a new thing. And I'm sure that my voice, in that way, I. I hope that it continues to grow and change with me. Has anyone seen that interview with Ryan Coogler where he's talking, he was asked, like, is Sinners your best movie? And Ryan Cooler was essentially just like, don't make me compare my children. Like, Station was the best movie I could make at that time. And like, Sinners is the best movie I can make at this time. Like, each thing is like a. A particular result of its moment and context. And, like, the person that he is and the. And the actors and the. All of the. All of those. All of those variables. And so I guess I feel that way where voice is just one of those variables, but it hopefully grows with me. Thank you. Does that kind of answer the question? [00:48:50] Speaker A: Yes. Thank you. And Noel's going to add on to that. Do current events shift your voice? [00:48:57] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I think current events shift who I am as a person. Right. And so, in a way, they also mass shape my writing, I think. I guess, like, thinking about. I would. Yeah, yeah, I would say I. I think about writing a book that set against, like, 80 years of the rise of Hindu nationalism in India, where even though this story is an intergenerational family story, much like if you read Pachinko is a Story about Japanese imperialism in Korea. Like, I would hope that somebody sees that in a thousand times before as well. Or is a story about this, like, the historical background is very curated for a reason that it goes to these specific years on purpose. And I guess there's no part of. Like, if we did not live in a world where Modi had been elected and we had not seen this man who oversaw pilgrims in 2002 be elected to the highest position in the state, maybe I would not have been interested in telling that history. But I think I am because of where we are today. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Awesome. Any other questions? [00:50:24] Speaker B: Did you go ahead and mute yourself? [00:50:26] Speaker A: I gotta mute. All right. Goodness. Okay. Any other questions in the room? Have one. I've got [00:50:37] Speaker B: in the planetary. Hello? Is there anybody there? Hello? [00:50:42] Speaker A: This is. She's gonna be. Asha's gonna be surprised. [00:50:45] Speaker B: This is her dad. I just won't tell her that. [00:50:48] Speaker A: I'm very proud of her. [00:50:49] Speaker B: Thanks, dad. [00:50:52] Speaker A: So are you, Are you who I muted in order for that? Yeah. [00:50:55] Speaker B: Oh, he absolutely is. Yes. [00:51:00] Speaker A: That's awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, you're most welcome. [00:51:04] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:51:08] Speaker A: Should we give you a minute? [00:51:10] Speaker B: You're so good. No, we can, we can continue. [00:51:13] Speaker A: Go ahead, Cal. I'm going to do it. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Could you elaborate more on like your diagramming process for your novel? Yeah, totally. So I think of. So if you like, think about the invert, the inverted check mark, which is just like a. It's like a classic. I, I, this is when I wish I was there, just like draw it on the whiteboard instead of making this, like, symbol with my hands. But I feel like it's. Thank you, Eli. I feel like it's like this, like a classic, like, rising tension. It's like this classic way of talking about raising tension. It's like, important to say that not every story needs to look like that type of plot. There are so many ways that stories can look. One of my favorite books is Human Acts by Han Kang, which certainly does not, I think, follow this story structure. But I find it to be interesting not for mapping plot, but for mapping tension. So what should build on what? And if I divide that I into thirds, then I can really see a three act structure imposed onto the inverted check mark. And I find that to be a really helpful way of tracking, like, what is the rising action or the rising tension really across the structure of the book? Where. What am I going towards at any moment in time? I think is like the question, what am I trying to lead us up to? Where. Where is a Moment of, like, adrenaline. Like, where is the energy? And so then I know what I'm working toward, even if I'm not there yet. I'm like, oh, I'm setting the groundwork for that moment to come in the future. And if I know where those moments are each coming, then I actually feel like I have some hold on my pacing and some hold on, like, oh, if I'm already here now, great. Maybe this novel is shorter than I thought it was going to be, right? Or if it's taking me a lot longer to get to. Oh, no, like, maybe it's a lot longer than I thought it was going to be. And it helps me, like, understand where in the overall energy I kind of stand. And I think about it as, like, if it takes a really long time to get to that first big, like, oh, here's where the story is really starting. Or where we're really taking off. I don't want my. I don't want my reader to have this question of, like, why are we even here? But I also don't want myself looking back at it and be like, why did I start this book there? Like, I don't understand. And so a lot of it is, even for me, in my own revision, to go back and say, like, oh, no, these are the moments. Like, they should build. Like, here's a good rule of three. Like, in this project I'm working on right now, I know that there are. There are three parties, and each one does something a little different in the tension, okay? So I know that they need to be. I don't want them to be too close to each other because I don't want them to be confused for each other. And I don't even need it to be so obvious that they are parties. Like, in my mind, they're like these specific gatherings. But each one of those moments should be a little bit of a turn in the tension. It should really ratchet it up. They should build upon each other. I think about poets and voltas and just the idea of the poetic turn near the end. That's what I really want the last one to be. But it means that I have to have built us into a rhythm until we get. Get there. [00:54:44] Speaker A: Awesome. And, Catherine, you're going to have our last question. [00:54:47] Speaker B: Oh, great. No pressure. So my question was, how much of your writing do you think is inspired by your life events or the life events that happen around you? And how much do you think is just plucked out of nothing and, like, formed like a badly shaped bowl by yourself? That's a great question. I think it's also like a. It's a complicated question, right? So I think what I mean to say is, um. When I was on tour for a thousand times before, I remember getting a question from someone once. And I know this is not what you're asking, but. But I say this to, like, explain why it's complicated in my mind, someone saying, like, did you get permission from your family to write this? And there's this, like, this compounding that always happens. And it happens, I think, to, like, writers of, like, very particular identities. This idea that, like, oh, everything must be auto fiction, or, like, because the protagonist shares the same identity as a writer, that, like, it would be the same story. And I remember being so, you know, in that moment, I was like, oh, this person is fundamentally, like, misunderstood. When I'm talking about, like, like wanting it to be an own voices type of story, that person had misunderstood it. And so there was, like, this desire to be almost defensive against, like, anything that could possibly be mirroring anything in my own life. Even if, like, I had set out with this explicit goal of we have a queer diaspor protagonist who's of Gujarati descent, who had grandparents who lived in Karachi. That's true for me. But, like, certainly nothing else in the story is. Like, I'm, like, it's true to me. Like, I took a ceramic class because I wanted that character to be a sculptor and I needed to, like, learn how to describe sculpting. And that's how I learned I was bad at wheel work. But, like, I did not. I didn't feel like it came inherently from me. But at the same time, I think that, like, every character. And so what I mean to say is that, like, there's this defensive, like, desire in me to be like, nothing comes from my own life, right? Like, I need it to be separate because I'm writing fiction, and I need it actually to be believed that I'm writing fiction and as, like, a queer, you know, femme of color. Like, there are many people who are initial to say, well, if your character is also that and you are also that, then you must be writing autofiction. And that's not true. Like, I wish I had ancestral memory. I don't. But on the other side, I think what I mean to say is that I think that there's so much of character work and character building that has to come from what is known and where I exercise my own empathy. And so, of course, every character must come from something that I know or otherwise I Think that character is, like, not being treated like a whole person. Like, to write something where there's no way in for me and be like, oh, this is sculpted out of pure air. I've never experienced that emotion. And. But this character feels it. Like, I don't. I don't quite buy that. And so I think. I think there are little moments that make me think there are. There are very few moments, I think, in my fiction room, like, oh, this explicitly. Like, this is nonfiction getting auto fictioned or, like, getting turned into fiction. Like, we're changing the characters names or something. I don't tend to write that way, but I also think that there is, like, I. I think it's why I believe that writers really have to be in the world to write well, because I think it's really hard to write things you haven't seen or haven't experienced in when it comes to, like, the feeling of empathy. And so if you're not, like, out and about in the world interacting with people, I think it's really hard to write about interacting with people. Um, and so I guess, like, does that make sense? I think that that's actually, like, the. There's. There's this, like, push and pull between the two for me in that way. [00:58:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. No, that makes a total. [00:58:50] Speaker B: That makes total sense. I know I've. I know some people say that, like, oh, they don't touch anything from their real life at all. And I know some people say, like, oh, I can't write about something I haven't lived or experienced. Okay, so, like, even at that, like, what I mean, though, is if I were like, oh, I could choose to write about any city except one I have lived in. Right? I am now writing in response to my own life. I guess. Like, what I mean is that the self is. Is really hard to erase in that way. Like, I don't know where the border ends and begins in. In something like that. Because the idea of, like, oh, if. And I guess, like, this is my feeling, right? Like, the idea of, like, oh, I. Like, I am not a mother. There are certainly a lot of mothers in a thousand times before, right? Like, it's. It's a story about inner. An intergenerational family. There are mothers and fathers, and I am. I am no type of parent. But, like, just because I am not a parent does not mean that I can't imagine what it means to care for someone and what that type of care might look like. So, of course it comes from something in my own life. You know, I don't know. I think those boundaries are. I'm, like, almost wary of. I'm wary of hard denial there, even though I feel myself sometimes wanting to take that side because I'm so defensive against what happens to, I think, a lot of women of color who are writers where it's this just like, oh, you must be your character. This must be that story. And I felt that happen to myself, and I still. Ugh. Like, you know, like, it's like, oh, that person asked the wrong question on that tour. Like, I remember exactly. Like, I will never forget this, because I remember was like, I having to be like, it's not my family story. Didn't have to ask anyone for permission. Like, I don't. I don't know what we've gotten wrong here, but this is not a memoir. And at the same time, I think there's a part of me that's like, well, but I, you know, I chose to write about South Asia, You know, [01:00:58] Speaker A: Asha, this has been fabulous, and we're so glad that you have joined us. I'm still. [01:01:01] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. So [01:01:06] Speaker A: that's. That's. That's what I've got. Thank you so much for being here. [01:01:09] Speaker B: Of course. Thank you so much. [01:01:11] Speaker A: Thanks. [01:01:13] Speaker B: Have a good one. [01:01:15] Speaker A: Congratulations. Congratulations again on a thousand times before winning that prize. And we hope to talk to you soon. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Thank you. Talk soon. [01:01:24] Speaker A: Bye.